Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit: November 1, 2014 legal bill will be paid on time! / Poursuite canadienne contre la FATCA et le gouvernement canadien : nos frais légaux du 1er novembre 2014 seront payés à temps !

[We now have a new post taking us up to February 1, 2015. This post will be retired.]

Dear Donors,
Together, we reached our goal of $100,000 to pay the November 1 legal bill 11 days ahead of schedule!
Thank you Canadian donors from coast to coast and our friends from around the world for your generosity, support and determination — and especially for not being afraid.
The name of our non-profit corporation is the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty.”
We were very deliberate in including in our name the word “sovereignty”, which forms a cornerstone of our Claims against the Government of Canada.
Canada and dozens of other countries throughout the world gave into a bully because their “leaders” were afraid of harm caused by a trading “partner” — and they gave their sovereignties away.
Help us convince by example the Leaders and Governments of all countries worldwide that they should return their sovereignties back to their Peoples.
Please continue to support our lawsuit.
“Alone we can do so little. Together we can do so much.” (Helen Keller)
— Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, and the ADCS-ADSC team

Chers donateurs,
Ensemble, nous avons atteint notre but d’amasser 100 000 $ pour payer notre facture légale du 1er novembre 11 jours d’avance !
Un gros merci à vous, donateurs canadiens, et à nos amis de tous les coins du monde pour votre grande générosité, soutien et détermination. Et surtout pour votre courage.
Le nom de notre organisme sans but lucratif est « l’Alliance pour la défense de la souveraineté canadienne ».
Nous avons choisi délibérément le mot « souveraineté » puisqu’il constitue la base fondamentale de nos revendications envers le gouvernement du Canada.
Le Canada et des dizaines d’autres pays se sont pliés devant l’intimidation des États-Unis parce que leurs « leaders » ont eu peur des menaces de notre « partenaire » commercial. Ils ont donc vendu leur souveraineté à rabais.
Aidez-nous à convaincre les dirigeants et les gouvernements de tous ces pays qu’ils se doivent de remettre leur souveraineté à leurs peuples.
S’il vous plaît, continuez à soutenir notre cause.
« Seuls, nous pouvons faire si peu. Ensemble, nous pouvons faire beaucoup. » (Helen Keller)
— Ginny, Gwen et toute l’équipe de l’ADCS-ADSC

[There will be a new post to show our progress in making the $100,000 February 1, 2015 legal bill. The next three months takes us through the holidays gift-giving season.]
DONATE to (ADSC en français).

140 thoughts on “Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit: November 1, 2014 legal bill will be paid on time! / Poursuite canadienne contre la FATCA et le gouvernement canadien : nos frais légaux du 1er novembre 2014 seront payés à temps !

  1. The Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty website is launched (please see above post)!
    This could not have been accomplished without the help of many including especially Webmaster Gwendolyn Brock, who put it all together – and so much more, Video Editor Deckard 1138, and the Video Director Lynne Swanson who selected all of the clips.
    While you are donating, please watch the video. It is part of the website. This video is the cornerstone of ADCS, our website, and it says it all.

  2. @Blaze, @Stephen.
    I just sent a note to Blaze with an outline of funding I will be doing.
    Money is on the way in the morning post, I pray it helps.
    Its now time for the leap of faith.
    God bless you all,

  3. 100,000 thanks to everyone who worked so hard to put the legal challenge together. It’s quite sad that things had to come to this, but it was clear a long time ago that a Charter Challenge would be necessary.
    Let’s all spread the word and get those dollars, pounds, euros, etc rolling in.

  4. @George: Thanks!

    @Hazy: I hope those 100,000 thanks begin rolling in by the dollars.
    We know from our statistics there are far more people following Sandbox than ever post. We don’t know who you are, but we hope you have learned from us and have found some support as you have stayed quietly in the background. We hope you will now support us in this next stage of the battle.
    A few people e-mailed me at maplesandbox at yahoo dot ca to thank Outraged and me for what we have done here and how it has helped them.
    The very best way you can thank us is to donate to the Challenge Fund now and in the future. I think what we saw and heard at the Finance Committee is just a taste of what the Cons will do to us. I think the taste will become much more bitter as we fight this legally.
  5. I’ve just sent in $1000. Good luck with the battle. I don’t post often, but I follow what you’re doing, and I both admire and completely support you. I’m very sure that there are many others like me out here.

  6. I just wrote my cheque and am walking to post it this morning before work. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

  7. Lynne
    Is the changes in the1995 USA Canada tax treaty that allows USA tax law in Canada even though the CRA will only collect from people who were not Canadian at the time going to be included in challenge..
    The CRA would have collected in Harden Case. In addition if the courts ever reversed the revenue rule it would be a real pain to all Canadians.

  8. @GeorgeIII We are not sharing any of the specifics of the case.  The legal opinion from Joe Arvay was comprehensive and detailed.

  9. Lynne
    I am just saying that the changes due to 1995 USA Canada tax treaty appear to be discriminatory. Since it involves collection of money I think it is worse than FATCA.

  10. Here is a really interesting article from a Montreal tax lawyer who is a former accountant, was an Executive Assistant to the Deputy Minister of Finance in the past and was General Counsel to the House of Commons Finance Committee on a review of the GST.
    I think this is the first time I have seen a practicing Canadian tax lawyer raise the issue of extraterritoriality and constitutionality.
    He says he will be writing more on the constitutional issues in the upcoming weeks  It will be interesting to follow.

  11. Lynne from the article
    “Obviously, any acceptance of an IGA is the result of U.S. political and economic dominance that offers no realistic choice to any country . One can be safe to assume that Canada would not have had the same results had it decided to launch its own Canadian FATCA !”
    I think that the Liberal will win the next election. If the IGA is ruled unconstitutional, the Liberal will use the non withstanding if the Obama uses the 30% withholding or use a type 2 agreement which is a lot worse than our IGA. Your swearing to the Queen 40 years ago would mean diddly in that case. You would have to go to US consulate and hope you get a friendly ruling.
    Now my question for Lawyers will the US Supreme Court prevent Obama or Hillary (next president of USA) from applying the 30% withholding if Canadian court rule IGA unconstitutional?

  12. @George III. lets try to answer your questions.
    The US Courts could very likely strike down the IGAs. There is no authority for them. BUT all the countries changed their domestic law!! So it would in essence stay in effect.
    But FATCA was passed by the Congress and signed by the President so it is lawful and the 30% business would still apply.
    The IGA in Canada is facing a Charter Challenge and I have to say think will win.
    That puts the next government in a bind. I have read enough now where the noteithstanding could be political poison, but I also felt the IGA was political poison.
    Canada would have to pass a retaliatory tax in order to get the US to back down.
    If the US is threatened with retaliatory witholding they will back down because cooler heads will prevail showing Canada is not a tax haven for US expats!!

  13. I just sent in my donation for the Charter Challenge to the Alliance for Defence of Canadian Sovereignty. Would have sent it sooner but my internet was disconnected for a few days due to a work project at my home. Please keep us posted as to fund raising progress. It may be possible for me to send more later.
    This link may be of interest:
    Beware that it appears to be written by a lawyer. He recommends OVPD which we know is a dangerous option. However this is a recent article showing the widening scope of FATCA, spreading like a contagious disease. I think we need to keep in mind FATCA is being imposed by the United States. The current Canadian Con government is going along with FATCA, which is evil. However, the larger evil emanates from inside the US.

  14. @PatCanadian: Thanks!
    Robert Wood has been from the IRS hymnbook for a long time. A few Brockers and Sandboxers have been able to engage him in some respectful debate in his comments section.
    As for the Canadian government (and many other around the world): “Congress has spoken.”

  15. @ Lynne:
    Send me an email.
    You can count on a donation from me.
    By the way Lynne, assuming we are successful in the litigation, our position as plaintiffs should be that the government reimburse our costs. Why is that German-born Canadians are not faced with this expense?

  16. @ Lynne
    I got the website information by listening to your YouTube link.
    I made a donation. I can probably send more at a later date.
    Send me an email anyway. I would like to talk to you (assuming you are ok with that).
    I think service clubs like Rotary and Lions should be stepping up to the plate. I am going to ask around.
    My implacable loathing and disdain for Obama, his compliant media, his minions, and almost all things American are becoming more intense by the day. I take little comfort in NDP and Green voting against your amendment. Given the right to do so, I am sure every single one of them would have voted for Obama.

  17. Just released today, very promising news: “The founder and CEO of one of the world’s largest independent financial advisory organizations is hailing the involvement of one of America’s most prominent superlawyers in the campaign to repeal the highly controversial Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) as “the tipping point.”…“The decision taken by Mr Bopp, who has previously successfully challenged other questionable finance laws in the Supreme Court, to take on the fatally-flawed FATCA could, I suspect, be the tipping point in the campaign to ultimately have it repealed. “He is on a legal mission to definitively prove that FATCA, which has far-reaching negative consequences for the 7.6 million U.S. citizens abroad, the 13 million green-card holders and American businesses that operate globally, is unconstitutional on at least three counts.

  18. Mr Green is clearly a wealthy man. Perhaps he would consider supporting our challenge as well.

  19. There have been problems with the comment system at Brock the past few days so I’m cross-posting this here.
    It’s Time for a Poem from Em — More or Less
    If the Brock and Sandbox web sites get into a big mess,
    Just write a cheque to relieve all your blog addict distress.
    Be sure to spell out all the words in A.D.C. and S.
    Then send your cheque along to the legal fund’s address.
    This will help us all achieve our hard-won court success
    Of not allowing charter rights and freedoms to regress.
    Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty
    Attn: Stephen Kish
    283 College Street, P.O. Box 67678
    Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
    M5T 3M1

  20. Thanks Em for the poetic reminder. We need all the donations we can get to fight this through the courts. Please keep them coming or make your donation if yu haven’t already.
    We can only do this together.

  21. I have tried to post a coupe things on theBrock site but there seems to be some sort of tech glitch there ….. anyway, I was suggesting that folk consider consulting with a couple of hotshot lawyers who are connected with organizations that challenge Constitutional matters …. both for general counsel and also for possible persons to join in the Challenge and perhaps have access to additional funding: from which a quote is “The Constitutional Rights Centre and constitutional lawyer Rocco Galati launched the initial challenge, and Quebec has joined the fray.”
    The second one was for another lawyer, sounds retired, who used to be senior in the CCLA …..

  22. After months of a 7 days a week work schedule, I finally took Canada Day off.
    And what did I do– I sent out numerous emails providing information on the FATCA IGA and ADCS.
    I hope ADCS receives a pile of money from Atlantic Canada!

  23. Sandboxers:
    See the July 4 Update.
    We need 75k and plaintiffs and we begin the fight.
    Spread the word.

  24. While searching for something else I came across Brock University in St. Catharines, ON. They are celebrating their Golden Anniversary this year. I wonder if anyone would have a connection to either the faculty or alumni — enough to ask support for ADCS? BTW, Brock U’s mascot is Boomer the Badger. I kid you not! Their motto is “Surgite” which is Latin for “Push On”, supposedly the last words of Major-General Sir Isaac Brock. That’s something we can all take to heart.

  25. See July 10, 2014 updated post:
    UPDATE July 10 2014
    Money: Only six days since last post and your donations are whittling down on the money needed to begin the lawsuit. Please send more right now. Remember, litigation will take a long time.
    Plaintiffs: Thank you so much to the brave souls who have volunteered to be plaintiffs. We want more to convince the Government of Canada that we are serious and to show the spectrum of Canadians affected.
    If interested, contact me on the ADCS website.
    I am now opening up my request for Canadian plaintiffs (who will disclose their names publicly) to include US persons who are either IRS non-compliant or IRS compliant, ANY person who is presently considered to be a US person, any person who was a former U.S. citizen who renounced because of a “FATCA-related” issue, and non-U.S. Canadians who have a joint bank account with a spouse who is a US person.
    In addition, if you are a Pure Canadian having no ties whatsoever with U.S personhood (by birth, marriage, etc.) who is willing to be a plaintiff because you feel strongly, as a Canadian, that the Government of Canada should NOT cede its sovereignty to a foreign government — contact me as well.
    All plaintiffs must be angry.

  26. Do we have a few more stories like ‘this submission.’ The ADCS gives brief examples. This is more in depth.

  27. JC, you ask for more stories like the “submission” I mentioned in my post. This was a submission by an innocent Canadian, horribly harmed by the U.S. IRS tax codes, who was willing to disclose her name.
    The submissions that I want to read about, and which we need for litigation, are those from Canadians who are also willing to disclose their names and their U.S. citizenship-caused tax problems publicly and put themselves at risk of further harm. Can you help us find these people?
    Arctic, thank you for another donation!

  28. @Stephen Kish
    I am sending a small donation by mail. Don’t have much right now but may be able to send a larger amount later.
    Thanks for updating us on Lynne Blaze’s progress.

  29. Today’s update, that Joe Arvay has been retained, is good news, because it says to me the first benchmark of $75,000 needed to get started has been reached. Except, IMO, if that’s all that’s been raised so far, frankly I think it’s pathetic and doesn’t speak well of the majority of affected “US persons” in Canada, assuming (reasonably, I’d think) most of them are now aware they are affected. Here’s my reasoning.
    There are estimates of a million people in Canada affected by this violation of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Realistically, even if that number is accurate (which according to what I’ve read about Census records it may not be), maybe 300,000 or so could be expected to contribute something — after subtracting people who are still unaware, are children living at home, students on a very limited budget, people who are unemployed or on restricted retirement incomes, etc. If all of those estimated 300,000 folks gave even $10 each on average, ADCS would have $3 million which should cover the costs, I’d hope. Or if 30,000 gave an average of $100. (That’s arguably only 10% of affected Canadians who could very reasonably expected to find $100 in their budgets on average, I’d have thought.) I’d hope we could do better than that, but even that rate of giving among that many people would likely pay for this, or go a very long way toward doing so.
    I hope there aren’t folks out there sitting on their wallets and hoping/expecting that someone else is going to pay for this. If most people think that way, this isn’t going to fly. And why should a small minority bear the burden for the vast majority, if that’s what’s happening?
    Think about it, if you haven’t contributed yet. What are you waiting for? If you’re worried about anonymity, just postal-mail a personal cheque to Stephen Kish at the address give on the ADCS website. Stephen isn’t going to “out” you, Canada Post isn’t going to steam open Stephen’s mail, and there’s no way CRA or IRS can possibly track down donors of personal cheques through the banking system even if they wanted to or legally could do so — the technological, staff and budgetary implications for that just don’t exist for either of those agencies (or the banks AFAIK) given staffing and budget levels. At least not as far as I can tell (and I worked with, though not in, IT in the Government of Canada for a number of projects for a number of years before I retired, and I’ve kept current enough on technology to be reasonably confident of the opinion I just expressed).
    And if you’re so terrified you won’t even write a cheque, well personally I think you need some professional medical help. That would be carrying paranoia several bridges too far IMO.
    And yes I have contributed as I am able, both to the legal opinion fund and more recently to the ADCS fund. And I’m not a US person and my accounts are not reportable under FATCA or the IGA, nor is my wife nor her accounts. So I could easily convince myself this isn’t my battle and I needn’t contribute to it … but that isn’t me. So far, anyway.
    I’d be interested in knowing how many people actually have contributed to the ADCS fund to date, unless the litigators and ADCS board have a solid strategic reason for withholding that information. I’m not so concerned about the amount, but I am curious and potentially concerned about the number of contributors. If it’s several thousand, or hopefully 20 or 30 thousand, that’s one thing. If it’s only a couple hundred, that’s a very different story from my perspective anyway. No way are a few hundred people going to be able to fund this, at least not if they’re at my income level on average. Nor would it be remotely reasonable or defensible for the 99%+ of other affected US persons in Canada to expect them to.
    Think about that last paragraph, if you haven’t contributed yet. If you have, this post doesn’t apply to you, and thanks for pitching in.
    If you won’t stand up and fight for yourself, your family, and your rights, why should anyone else do that for you?

  30. @ Schubert
    On July 4th, ADCS announced they needed $75,000 more which I interpreted to mean they had collected $175,000 towards the first goal of $250,000. Although they had wanted to get to that goal in one month and it actually took two, the last dollars are always the hardest to bring in so I’m pretty impressed by the result. Now that Joseph Arvay has been officially engaged we are ready to “Surgite!” It won’t be easy to “Push On!” to that staggering $1.5 million mark but momentum will build and there is time ahead to get it done. (I’ll be watching to see the time table that ADCS will be posting soon.) Thank you for your own contributions and your motivating words for everyone. No matter where we are on the sunlight to shadow spectrum there is a way to contribute to ADCS and we can’t let fear hold us back.

  31. I have donated twice, and will again. I don’t have a lot to spare, but this is important and I am giving what I can, when I can. I trust the ADSC administrators to keep my name confidential, so I am send via email transfer. (It’s very easy to do. )
    I’m doing this not just for me, but for all of my family, including my husband who has no ties to the US other than being married to me. He’s very supportive of my efforts around this, and he is adamant that the IRS has no right to any of our personal financial information.  And, of course, he’s right.
    We MUST defeat this. We MUST stand up for ourselves. Our government has let us down horribly and we MUST make that very clear to them. We elected them – they are supposed to be representing us, and they are not.
    Please contribute what you can!

  32. It’s great we made it this far. I agree it’s very good news that Joseph Arvay has been retained and John Richardson will be involved. There must be an awful lot of people out there affected by this issue. As one of them, I prefer to give money to the Charter Challenge cause than to the IRS. In a case such as mine, I find this particularly humorous as I owe no tax but am aware that the IRS might try to collect penalties. I hope that we can make others more aware of the challenges to come. Thank God there is a group of us willing to stand up and fight. Hiding from the US FATCA problem will only make it worse and allow it to grow.

  33. I’ve just made my third contribution (including one to the call for funds to get the original legal opinion). I will contribute again before November.
    I don’t post often, and I’m not likely to be affected immediately by this, since I was born in Canada, although with one American parent. I lived in the U.S. for a few years as a teenager, but I have no qualms about declaring that, because of an undocumented relinquishment, I’m not a U.S citizen. My father registered me when we moved from Canada to the U.S., in early 1978, but we were told unequivocally at the time that I would forfeit any claim to U.S. citizenship if I returned to Canada as an adult. So I moved back as soon I could afford to leave my parents’ house and have lived strictly as a single-citizenship Canadian ever since. I haven’t even crossed the border since my father died a few years after I moved, and I had no idea until a couple of years ago that the law had changed just a few months after my parents’ move to the States.
    I know that the U.S. no longer accepts undocumented relinquishments by those unfortunate enough to be born dual, and I have thought of applying for a passport – which I would need to renounce – and stating, absolutely truthfully, that I was doing so despite a) not being able to prove that my father lived in the U.S. long enough to transmit citizenship (I know that he did, but he was footloose in his youth, and I have no idea where he was after the age of sixteen or so); b) having relinquished U.S. citizenship nearly thirty years ago to the best of my knowledge and intention at the time; and c) wanting the passport only so that I could get into a U.S. consulate to complete the relinquishment formally.
    I won’t do that, however. I refuse to accept that a foreign government has the right to decide whether or not I am protected by the laws of the country of my birth, residence, and sole citizenship. I can’t change what the U.S. does – it’s not my country – but I do expect my country to defend my rights. The fact that the Harper government is cheapening and eroding what it means to be a Canadian is why this lawsuit is so important.

  34. Janeb,
    Thank you for donating yet again.
    To those who read Sandbox and have never donated: Please read Janeb’s story and consider how you can help.

  35. ” I can’t change what the U.S. does – it’s not my country – but I do expect my country to defend my rights. The fact that the Harper government is cheapening and eroding what it means to be a Canadian is why this lawsuit is so important. ”
    How appropriately stated, janeb! Thank you.

  36. @janeb….
    I will be donating again in a few days too.
    We must, in my opinion, direct our vitriol most strongly at the US government. They, and their usurper president, are the ones who have passed this FATCA monstrosity into an extra-territorial law.
    Our financial institutions, many Canadian businesses both large and small, and many private individuals are going to be upset if this constitutional challenge is successful. If the challenge is upheld, the US and their warlord president will want to impose the 30% withholding tax on all of us. Given that the US and Canada have the largest 2-way trade on earth, many, many people will be hurt by our successful challenge.
    It will not just be big business. It will be injurious to many private individuals, pension plans, and the like. This the hammer that the US government is holding over our head. Really, it is more like a 50 calibre sniper rifle being held 6 inches from our head, including our government’s head……a Mafia-style offer that we cannot refuse.
    Sometimes I think we are going after the wrong defendant. What Obama and his poodles are doing to us amounts to defamation of character.

  37. @Arctic Grayling, I think we have to act where we can have the most effect, which is on our Cdn govt. The americans have to deal with their government. The US govt has shown time and again that they don’t give a hoot what anyone else or any other country says or thinks of them, so any CBT resistance has to come from within the US (and, of course, Americans abroad who vote).

  38. Janeb u do not need u.s. passport to renounce. u only need 2 turn in passport if u have one.
    because u were born in canada, there is no reason y ur cdn bank might i.d.u as u.s.person. in ur situation, i think u r safe.
    sorry 4 lower case. restricted in typing and energy. still in hospital.

  39. @ Lynne
    Your one finger typing is so cute. Just like the teens and their texting. (That generation must have very strong thumbs by now.) You’ll get your strength back eventually and we will all welcome your return. Take care!

  40. @ArcticGrayling,
    I don’t believe that the US will pull the FATCA trigger on Canada if/when the challenge succeeds. They would destroy their credibility internationally, since Canada is NOT a tax haven, and since they have already bragged about using FATCA as a weapon of financial destruction to destroy or punish Russia for transgressions in the Ukraine. They can’t both purport to be saintly crusaders against tax and related crimes, and also use FATCA as a weapon – its not credible. Also looks like the US is capricious and exploitive and irresponsible.
    How can they justify seriously injuring Canada – their closest neighbour and trading partner – (who already has the most extensive tax treaty with the US of any other country) for heeding a democratic and legal result decided by our highest courts? That is DEMOCRACY in action – something we have had none of on this issue from either the feds in Ottawa or in Washington. They can hardly credibly punish a country for following its own constitution and Charter of Rights. They also still face their own legal and political challenges inside the US on the basis that they have usurped the power of Congress by entering into the IGAs with no legal authority to do so. The OECD Common reporting meetings are coming up in the fall – and the US will NOT be agreeing to reciprocity, and the OECD has already said that the Common Reporting will NOT be based on the US system of citizenship-based taxation, but on residency. Everyone knows already that the US FATCA has no clothes, but the other governments are colluding for their own reasons – and participating in the fiction that the US has spun. They’ll have to save face, and this is bringing them unwelcome critical attention – and so politicians may break ranks to save themselves, official oppositions may take the opportunity to raise it against the governments who signed on, etc..
    All the other FATCA signatories will be watching this, and it may very well inspire similar actions elsewhere, and in the EU. At the very least, other parliamentary democracies with similar laws and structures will need to reexamine their actions as the issue will be the same or very very similar.

  41. So many thanks to the plaintiffs and all who have put so much effort into the lawsuit.
    I feel it would be the height of stupidity for the IRS to take any action against Gwen and Ginny. If the IRS does so, I’m sure we will back the plaintiffs to the fullest.

  42. Many thanks to Ginny and Gwen. What courage you have! It is amazing that this happened so quickly. I will continue to contribute and spread the word.
    Also, good to see you are back Lynne. Please take it slow until you have recovered.

  43. Hey, just ran across the CCLA motto. Made me wonder – just WHERE THE HECK IS THE CCLA in all of this? Their motto is (supposedly):
    The freedom of no one is safe unless the freedom of everyone is safe.

  44. One of the contacts I sent press release to was Abby Deshman at CCLA. It sure would be good for them to back up this Challenge!

  45. Outraged and Carol,
    CCLA did not have the resources to take on this complicated and expensive lawsuit. We (including especially the plaintiffs) are taking a gamble that somehow donors will find the monies to keep the litigation going.
    Also appreciate that there were experienced lawyers at a number of major firms who would not agree to take on our case at any price. We are very lucky to have Joe Arvay and his team.

  46. FATCA is Obama’s law. If the IRS takes any action against any of the plaintiffs, all they have to do is enter the United States illegally and tell Obama that they will support the Dems forever. Then Obama will give you free accommodation, and maybe even an EBT card.

  47. As reported over the IBS, Ginny’s home-town newspaper, the Windsor Star, said this today in an editorial:
    An Editorial in The Windsor Star (her home town in Ontario) has this to say about Ginny:
    The Star’s view: Ginny Hillis is a bureaucracy-fighting hero
    Let’s hear it for Ginny Hillis, a 68-year-old retired Windsor lawyer who this week told both the IRS and Canada Revenue Agency to pound salt.
    She and a woman from Toronto have done what no politician in this country has had the guts to do, which is tell the U.S. government it has no right to know anything about the personal finances of those born stateside but legally residing here….
    …. Schubert’s comment: at least one Canadian editorial board has its head screwed on straight and a sense of Canadian sovereignty that so far has AFAIK been sadly lacking on the editorial pages of so-called MSM like Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, National Post, etc.
    Maybe living so close to the border, Windsorians (is that the word?) have clearer vision about the US and Harper’s kowtowing to them over and over again …

  48. Lynne, the survey also shows that 13% feel that people in Canada who do not want to be U.S. citizens should just go ahead and “renounce.” Many, maybe even most, Canadians and American homelanders feel this way. This is often a comment on the blog sites.
    This a separate issue from the question of our fundamental rights, but we need to get out the word much more that renouncing from IRS obligations can be a very expensive and dangerous process, which many cannot afford. I am exploring possibilities of forcing a change in the U.S. IRS tax code that will make it easier for U.S. citizens to renounce their citizenship, penalty free.

  49. The coverage just keeps on coming. What a nice change. Marni Soupcoff, executive director of the Canadian Constitution Foundation, has this in the National Post:
    “Taxes — governments will go to extraordinary lengths to collect them, and will often lose sight of the constitutional checks on their own power in the process.”
    See the following in the National Post:

  50. ccf want 2 march in the fatca lawsuit parade now, but they had little interest when we contacted them months ago.

  51. calgary herald calls government of canada appallingly wimpy.
    once again, the media now wants 2 support us after months and ears of ignoring our cries.
    one reporter told me he could not convince his editor to akkow him 2 report on fatca becase he insisted it could never happen in canada. that silence is exactly the reason we are where we are today.

  52. @Lynne
    Vancouver Sun
    Thank you to columnist Douglas Todd and Vancouver Sun editors! I had been in touch with them about their previous coverage and really appreciate the change in approach to the FATCA/US tax issue. Doug’s coverage in this column is much more comprehensive than past articles, written by others, in the Vancouver Sun. He gives the viewpoints of US persons harmed by the overreach of the US/IRS system of injustice.
    I think it needs to be said as well that the Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock websites provide a great deal of support for all those experiencing the stresses of a US/ FATCA connection.

  53. Oh, interesting. I didn’t realize that Murray Rankin and Joe Arvay used to be law partners. No wonder Murray is so well versed in FATCA and it’s ramification. AND he has a link to ADCS! right on.

  54. Vancouver Sun story is front page news!
    The article by Doug Todd “Fear and Loathing over Uncle Sam’s tax crackdown” was published in today’s paper as front page story. As I went out this morning, I saw my neighbor’s Vancouver Sun in front of her door, and there it was on the front page. Picture’s of Uncle Sam with his greenback’s and the Peace Arch border crossing were featured. Also photo’s of Elizabeth May (Green Party leader), Beth Johnson (former mayor of Delta) and James Hamilton (brave Coquitlam resident). Not all pictures or location of article are shown in online version which I viewed yesterday.
    Coverage was very thorough and gave points of view of Canadian citizens who are also unfortunate US persons.
    I am upgrading my weekend Vancouver Sun subscription to daily.

  55. Getting out of the clutches of the IRS penalty-free would be sweet indeed. But as long as the USA could block entry at their borders, my DH and I (dual citizens) dare not renounce as our elderly parents, siblings, and their families all live in the USA. We’d like to attend weddings, reunions, etc. This, of course, is only one reason why some of us are reluctant to out ourselves to the IRS. Another example would the people protecting business partners or children who would be exposed to IRS if they renounced. Rather than having to go on the federal name-and-shame list, many of us are pinning our hopes on your challenge–that the Supreme Court of Canada will protect ALL Canadian citizens residing in Canada from the over-reach of the USA/IRS, and disallow them from claiming us for tax purposes, fines, and penalties.

  56. @Jan, yes, very sweet indeed. Keep in mind though, that we’ve been warned that the lawsuit could take years… I hear what you’re saying, and we really don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, that is, how the US customs officials are going to treat renouncers. With the upswing, things might get better, as they will be more accustomed to running into that, but OTH, it could ruffle feathers and treatment could get worse. Hard to know. To date, I believe, there have been few issues with people who have renounced going to the US.
    I have worried that by renouncing that I might be exposing others in my family to the IRS, but I’ve been gently told I’m being a bit paranoid. Apparently, there is little communication between the State Dept and the IRS.
    It will take a lot for our government to be forced to admit they were wrong (and cowardly) – they will fight, if just to keep their inflated egos satisfied.

  57. @PatCanadian, thanks for the link. I love this quote from Suzanne Reisman,
    “Once they’ve got you, they never let you go. You have to renounce your citizenship, or you have to die.”
    Sounds very Terminator-ish!

  58. jan, if u r canadian citizens, u mat b able 2 relinquish rather than renounce if u becamezens citizens with the intent of relinquishing u.s. citizenship and if u have done nothing as a u.s. citizen–i.e. vote, have u.s. passport or filed with irs.
    the ease of this will be determined by when u became citizens. pre-1986 is best, pre 1995 is good and even pre 2004 is helpful.
    also, it is important u were not a minor when u became a citizen.

  59. ndp mp alex atamarenko says it’s simple. no canadian should have personal bank information given 2 u.s. government.
    his name is not as familiar as some others, but in the documents i obtained from finance, he was the first 2 raise alarm bells about fatca–while most of us were still blissfully unaware. finance said he was confused. in fact, he understood far better than anyone in finance or any con mp what fatca actually meant.

  60. Normally things like tax inversions don’t interest me but this caught my attention:
    Being financially savvy now has new meaning.
    “What exactly is tax inversion?
    A tax inversion allows a U.S. company to reorganize in a country with a lower tax rate by acquiring or merging with a company there. The move allows money earned outside the U.S. to be transferred to the parent company without paying additional U.S. taxes.”
    “U.S. President Barack Obama is not pleased with the tax inversion process, but it is perfectly legal, Dubroy said. U.S. lawmakers haven’t yet figured out whether to impose penalties on companies that seek tax breaks abroad, he added.”
    I will be sending another donation to the Charter Challenge fund this week.

  61. In Exit Strategy: FATCA Keeps Pushing Americans to Give Up Citizenship, U.S. Chamber of Commerce included information about our lawsuit.

    North of the border, a group of Canadian citizens affected by the law have filed suit in federal court charging that their country’s agreement with the IRS to hand over FATCA information is unconstitutional.

    We have to make this happen! Thanks to everyone who has donated already. If you haven’t, please do so now.

  62. Has this already started in court?
    If not, when can we expect it to?
    I am surprised there is not much more noise around this lawsuit.
    Can you explain the consequence of not reaching what’s needed by Nov 1. Is the suit being put on hold till we reach the goal, or are there more serious consequences?

  63. @Confused: The claim has been filed in Federal Court. The government has not made their response yet. We expect them to fight us hard with our tax .
    There has not been a court hearing or trial yet. That may take a year or longer. If we succeed at Federal Court, we expect the government to appeal. If we do not succeed, we will appeal. We anticipate this will go all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada–if the Supreme Court gives us leave to appeal.
    This will be long, costly and brutal. We can only do it if we raise the needed money at each step.
    Please donate. Please ask others to donate.

  64. Wow, that’s $1000 per day needed. I’m giving what I can but I just don’t have big bucks to contribute. I hope there’s someone out there who has the wherewithal to help make this happen. It’s so very important to so many people.

  65. @ Lynne-Blaze
    You’re able to type with caps now so I’m taking that as a good sign your recovery is going well. I dedicated my Sept 1st ADCS donation (aka Twig#4) to Ginny and Gwen but Twig#5 on Oct 1st will be to you — to acknowledge all your hard work and dedication and most of all to celebrate your full return to the FATCA fray. These “twigs” are also my response to a recent tweet by a certain little twit called Mia over there in Twitterland where I watch the messages but have chosen not to enter.

  66. @Em-Bee: Thanks so much for your donation and thoughts. I must admit my new IPad (gift from friends) helps with caps. I am able to do some caps on laptop, but I am still one hand there.
    I was discharged from the hospital to a rehab facility two weeks ago. I expect to be here a few weeks. Daily intense physio and occupational therapy, strengthening classes and one armed wheelchair volley ball are all he helping my recovery, but leaving me zapped by the end of the day.
    I am gradually reconnecting with the world.
    Keep up the fight everyone–and keep those donations coming.
    I especially ask those who have learned and benefitted from Sandbox and Brock but who have not yet donated to please do it now. We need the support of everyone even if you are not comfortable actively participating.

  67. Republicans Overseas has launched their own website to raise funds for a constitutional challenge to FATCA in the U.S.
    The good news is their efforts are where the lethal blow to FATCA could be struck worldwide. The bad news is they could be competing with us for money.
    With one million affected in Canada, over 7 million around the world, and more than 12 million Green Card holders, this should not be difficult.
    Please donate!

  68. Democrats Abroad are trying to paint the Republicans Overseas challenge as “working for the wealthy.”
    So. why isn’t Democrats Abroad working for “We the People,” who they claim to represent?

  69. So, I ran across this article today. My first thought was wow – Microsoft has more guts than the Canadian government!
    Microsoft is refusing to hand over data held in one of it’s data centres in Ireland.
    I love the last line of the article,
    “For now? The only barrier in preventing an open season on international data from U.S. law enforcement and intelligence agencies is Microsoft sticking to its guns.”

  70. With that decision, the US is showing once again they think their laws and courts rule supreme throughout the entire planet. I hope Microsoft holds firm. I don’t know what the implications of them being an American company are, but it’s clear Bill Gates has more guts than Stephen Harper.
    Robert Wood is reporting on Canadians attack U.S. expat rules–with a somewhat bizarre description of ADCS. Maybe we should send him some maple syrup as a thank you for some of the publicity he has given us.

  71. It’s great to see the amount needed below the $50,000. Thanks everyone.
    But, we still need almost another $50,000. Please keep those donations coming.
    I especially appeal to those who have not donated yet. We need the support of everyone in this fight.

  72. Does anyone maybe have that piece of art they inherited that they’ve never liked that they could sell on ebay? I’m wracking my brains trying to figure out how we can raise more money. There are so many of us affected by this that just don’t have a lot of money – and that might be how the US and Cdn gov’ts get away with this. We don’t have any high profile or big pockets people on our side, while the Cdn govt is in bed with big business pockets.

  73. @Outraged Not only are the Cons in bed with big business, they will use our tax dollars to fight us in the courts. I also anticipate the banks will apply for intervenor status and bring their massive financial resources to bear against us.
    Robert Wood at Forbes is wondering if IRS or U.S. Treasury will try to intervene. I don’t see how a foreign government could intervene in a Canadian constitutional case, but I am way past the point of being surprised about anything relating to this. At a minimum, I think they will try to pull the strings behind the scenes. We certainly know “Congress has spoken” for Canada on this.
    When I am out of the rehab hospital, I will buy lottery tickets and donate generously to the lawsuit if I win. Of course, IRS May demand a share!

  74. Happy Birthday @LauraSecord. Today is your 239th birthday.
    Thank you for your generous donation and that of Anonymous towards the Accidental American legal challenge south of the border.
    Thank you also for your contribution to a sovereign Canada. If only the Cons had a fraction of your determination to stand up to the Yanks.
    Enjoy a chocolate today!

  75. @Lynne, I know! Imagine the headlines it could generate!!! “Lottery winner uses funds to finance lawsuit against government!” That could get us some much needed media attention. I buy my tickets faithfully, but I have to say I rarely even win a free ticket, so there’s not much chance the headlines will be generated by me.

  76. @Outraged: Someone in London Ontario where I live won 14 million this week. It wasn’t me, but I will keep trying.
    In the meantime, I tweeted Eduardo Saverin to ask if he will help.
    We need one whale to help all the minnows. Oh wait. It was some of the whales that caused this attack on the minnows.
    I hope there are some honest whales swimming in the vast sea who will see the injustice of this and want to help.
    For now, it all depends on the minnows sending in their pension cheques. The government knows that and thinks we won’t be able to do it. We will.
    Minnows, please keep those donations coming. Especially those minnows (and whales!) who haven’t donated yet. We need everyone swimming with us.

  77. My comment at Brock:
    Do any of you agree with me in the reply I gave the latest request from the Liberals for some of my Canadian cash?
    From: caroltapanila
    Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2014 9:37 AM
    To: The Federal Liberal Agency of Canada ; Matt Grant ;
    Minister Dr. David Swann ; Scott Brison
    Subject: Re: Ambitious
    Sorry, no donation from me. I would first have to have in crystal clear terms the policy of the Liberals and hear it stated by Justin Trudeau – what you will do to reverse the Bill C-31 implementation of the intergovernmental agreement signed with the USA re FATCA that makes about one million Canadians, their spouses, their children, their business partners second-class to any other Canadians, their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and other Canadian law. I want the Liberal’s (and every other party’s) statement as my vote and my donations will ONLY go to the party that will uphold the rights of ALL Canadians. I know the Liberals see themselves as the party of Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but they will have to be crystal clear on the rights of so-called *US Persons in Canada* vs the rights of any other Canadians, no matter what their national origin or the national origin of their parents (or even their grandparents).
    The hard-earned and taxed Canadian retirement savings that I can spare will instead continue to go to Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty: I have paid the US IRS $3,661 in taxes related to the Canadian Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) that I hold for my Canadian-born (to, at the time, US citizen parents) son and which all Canadian taxpayers helped the Government of Canada match in bonds and grants. In my mind, that is indeed an improper use of Canadian taxpayer monies.
    Do the Liberals really foolishly believe in US reciprocity? I don’t want any Party so foolish to lead this great country.
    Carol Tapanila
    Calgary, AB

  78. It’s great to see that amount needed imch below the $40,000 mark. We are 60% of the way to our October 31 goal.
    Many thanks to Stephen and your ADCS team for your hard work, persistence and faith that we can do this.
    We have raised $10,000 in 11 days. We have another $40,000 to go to reach this goal in about 40 days.
    Again, I especially ask anyone who has not yet donated to do so now. Both large and small donations are welcome–but a nice cheque for $40,000 or more would be especially welcome.

  79. @calgary411
    I agree. No donation…as you say “they will have to be crystal clear on the rights of so-called *US Persons in Canada* vs the rights of any other Canadians”.
    Along with a couple of others from Brock, I have been in touch with the Liberal Party as well. We sent some ideas to a local Liberal candidate from our local area in BC. Pam Goldsmith-Jones had asked for our opinion on policy concerning FATCA.
    The following summarizes what we sent in response to her Liberal Party statement:
    “Regarding your statement on Liberal policy for FATCA/IGA issue:
    What leapt out at me was that “the Liberal Party of Canada raised the issue in Question Period, pressing the Conservative government to do the right thing for Canadians.”
    However, this does not go far enough. Things like amending the agreement so the IRS would not tax savings vehicles and asking for amnesty against IRS penalties are stop gap measures. These do not address the root of the problem.
    When Stephen Harper and the Conservatives pushed through legislation for the IGA, this sold out a large chunk of Canadian Sovereignty to the United States and the IRS. It also violates the Charter Rights of Canadian Citizens who happen to have some U.S. connection. XXXX and I collaborated on the following statement:
    “The Liberal Party needs to do the right thing for Canadians by restoring Canadian Sovereignty and restoring Charter Rights to all Canadian Citizens and permanent residents regardless of national origin, and by protecting them from the extraterritorial overreach of other nations.”
    Our friend XXX has added the following: “With the FATCA/IGA, the Harper Conservatives instituted the supremacy of U.S. law over Canadian citizens in Canada”. We think this situation needs to be put in reverse.
    These statements apply to the U.S. FATCA/IGA issue and indicate the direction which we believe the Liberal Party needs to travel to repair the damage done by the Conservatives.”
    We emphasized to the nominee and to Justin Trudeau that our vote and donations would have to be earned by the Liberal Party taking a stand on FATCA and the IGA. Until they are clear, no vote and no donations. Pam Goldsmith-Jones will be working with Justin Trudeau on policy this Fall.
    Additional correspondence has been sent directly to Justin Trudeau and the head of policy for the Liberal Party.

    I commented that I don’t want any Liberal swag come-on’s and certainly no Hillary Clinton endorsements — both negatives for my vote. When the Liberals have that great and expensive help of H.C., I would want them to have her speak about FATCA and all we discuss of who it affects in Canada and why she supports anything like US citizenship-based taxation for legal residents and citizens of other countries!
    Hold their feet to the fire, PatCanadian and any other Liberals out there.
    In the meantime, all my donations go to! Nothing of my little will go to any political party until I see their policy on what they will do regarding reversing the IGA implementing US FATCA.

  81. Oh man, I’m getting worried – that’s more than $1000 per day needed to make the goal. I’m wracking my brains trying to figure out a way to raise some money but not coming up with much. I’ll find some way to contribute more, though, I promise.

  82. To: All MapleSandboxers
    Re: Amended Statement of Claim
    Stephen Kish is on the road all day. He has asked me to post a comment regarding the updated / amended claim of the plaintiffs.
    For those of you interested in reading the amended Statement of Claim, it has now been posted by John Richardson at
    So, announcements are not lost in the sites of IsaacBrockSociety and MapleSandbox where so many topics are discussed, (Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty “From The Desk” of the ADCS-ADSC Board of Directors) is the dedicated site for all future announcements regarding the Canadian litigation.

  83. Thanks Calgary. I will do a new thread on this to ensure it is visible.
    I will also ask Outraged to add the amended claim to the FATCA lawsuit section.

  84. Let’s inflame Kim Moody and Roy Berg even more. Let’s show them we can challenge FATCA legally.
    As Mr.Moody readily admits, he is not a constitutional expert.
    Joe Arvay is a constitutional expert. Joe Arvay has demonstrated that in numerous constitutional cases at the Supreme Court of Canada. In fact, Joe Arvay is at the Supreme Court of Canada today on the assisted suicide case.
    Mr. Moody would love to see us fail in our fund raising efforts because he and Berg stand to profit greatly from FATCA fear mongering.
    The government on both sides of the border and the Canadian Bankers Association are also hoping we will fail.
    There are one million US persons in Canada. With just one loonie from each, we could double the amount we need to get to Federal Court and would have a Great War Chest for heading to the Supreme Court of Canada.
    We have many Canadians and friends around the world supporting us. We need the remaining Canadians to do their part.
    If you have not yet donated, please do it now. We all must do our part.

  85. Just over $2000 to go by November 1. We will do this.
    Thanks so much everyone. Keep those donations coming. As soon as we meet this goal, it will be time to start working on the next one.

  86. Way to go Stephen, ADCS Board and all our friends and donors in Canada and around the world.
    Dear Roy Berg: Isn’t it amazing what some “jingoistic! hyperbolic rhetoric admonishing Finance for ceding power, ceding sovereignty” can do?
    Lynne Swanson
    Chief Jingo of Canada

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